Bill Rammell: Extremely serious allegations about the conduct of both sides during the conflict have been made by the International Committee of the Red Cross and others. Those allegations have to be properly investigated. The hon. Gentleman referred to the alleged use of white phosphorus. Those allegations have been made but not substantiated and although the use of white phosphorus is not illegal the UK Government are very clear that it should not be used as an anti-personnel weapon and certainly not in a civilian environment. We will continue to make our view very clear to the Israeli Government and to urge them, as we have done, to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties.

Sally Keeble: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way this early in her speech. I very much welcome the Bill. Does she accept that people on carers allowance are often among those on the lowest incomes? Will she extend the saving gateway provisions so that they apply to those people as well?

Yvette Cooper: My hon. Friend is right that we need to guard against the exploitative approaches often adopted by loan sharks or other types of doorstep lenders. That is why we have taken action to clamp down on such practices, and why we are putting investment and support into providing people with different types of advice; for example, it might be possible to provide such advice through people's housing association or local council. Other sources of money help and advice at different times of people's lives might be Sure Start staff, or health visitors. We should not limit ourselves to the traditional services and approaches, because we want to make sure that the savings gateway is linked into our wider approach in respect of financial inclusion and the provision of advice, education and support on money matters.
	Clause 8 sets out how the Government contribution will work. The maturity payment will be calculated on the basis of the highest balance reached during the account, which means that as savers build up money in their account they will also build up entitlement to the maturity payment, but they will not be penalised for withdrawing their money at any time. We think that is important to build confidence for those on the lowest incomes, so that if they have savings that they might need—perhaps in 12 or 18 months' time—they will have access to them and will not find that their money is tied up for the full two years until the maturity payment is made. That is the kind of important flexibility that will benefit people and encourage more of them to take up the scheme.
	That approach has been widely supported by organisations working on financial inclusion and money support, by representatives of people on lower incomes and by the financial services industry. It has also had long-standing support, which I welcome, from the Treasury Committee, which said:
	"The introduction of a national Saving Gateway would be the most important single step towards achieving the aim of increasing saving among low-income individuals and households."
	Our approach is to build up support for those of working age who need to consider saving for the first time. The Bill comes alongside other measures to look at how we can encourage people to save more for their pensions and for their future. I welcome the support and engagement that we have received from a range of bodies, from community groups to financial institutions.
	The saving gateway offers a real incentive to save for working-age people on low incomes—a group with lower savings than the rest of the population and that needs them most. We think it is the right way to approach savings and support, providing help that could make a real difference to the lives up to 8 million low earners, encouraging them to build a savings habit and helping to bring them into the financial mainstream. I hope there will be widespread support for those objectives both inside and outside the House, and widespread support for the Bill. I commend it to the House.

Mark Hoban: People might ask why, in the middle of a recession, when the Government are encouraging people to spend, they are proposing a Bill that encourages people to save, but I see it as long overdue recognition of the need for savings and the impact of the lack of savings on families today. No one should underestimate the importance of savings for families. Savings provide a cushion against financial uncertainty, especially in times such as these. They help people to take responsibility for their future and enable them to make purchases without relying on credit.
	The culture of saving should never be seen as the preserve of the affluent. It is important that, when possible, people are encouraged to save, regardless of income. That message was brought home to me when I visited a credit union a couple of years ago. Staff told me that people were paying their benefit into their account and then withdrawing all of it, bar a few pence. When I asked why, I was told that it was a way for people on benefit to accumulate a small nest egg, to put aside some money for a rainy day or to meet unexpected expenses. People who might otherwise have turned to a loan shark or a pay-day lender could rely on their savings instead.
	The Bill is helpful in tackling financial exclusion and encouraging savings, but it comes against a backdrop of low saving in the economy as a whole and an astonishing degree of complacency from the Government, who seem happy to allow the economy to grow on the back of debt rather than build sound foundations with a reasonable level of savings. Ministers challenged about the fall of the savings ratio from 9.6 per cent. in 1997 to 1.8 per cent. today seem to wear it as a badge of honour and as a sign of people's confidence in the Government's running of the economy. That hubristic attitude means that households are now badly placed to face the downturn; they do not have savings to act as a cushion against financial uncertainty. With the lowest savings ratio in 30 years and a third of families having no savings in 2006, compared with only one in 10 in 1997, families are ill prepared to cope with the financial shocks that many face today.
	There is evidence of families in financial distress turning to their credit cards for short-term help; they are even being encouraged to use credit cards to pay their council tax, because they have no savings to dip into. That is a symptom of an economy built on debt and a culture that depends on debt to fund a lifestyle. What we need to move towards is an economy built on savings—savings that provide investment in industry, as well as a cushion for people's future and savings that help people to provide for themselves as well as help them to face unexpected challenges in their income and outgoings. We must help people to rebuild their savings in good times to prepare them for bad times.
	The Bill's narrow focus means that it will not help the vast majority of families and households to build up savings and protection for their future, because it is targeted very narrowly on people in receipt of benefits or on low incomes. The Bill will do little to repair the savings culture in the UK, which the Government have allowed to decline over the past 11 years; nor will it help families to switch from paying for big-ticket items from savings rather than from debt, or restore saving as a mainstream habit rather than an eccentric interest. In short, it is no answer to our nationwide addiction to borrowing.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7).
	That the following provisions shall apply to the Saving Gateway Accounts Bill:
	 Committal
	1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.
	 Proceedings in Public Bill Committee
	2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday 10 February 2009.
	3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.
	 Consideration and Third Reading
	4. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.
	5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.
	6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading.
	 Other proceedings
	7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on any message from the Lords) may be programmed.— ( Ms Butler. )
	 The House proceeded to a Division.

Northern Rock

David Borrow: I welcome the opportunity to raise the issues of flooding and drainage in my South Ribble constituency. The constituency lies on the Lancashire plain between Preston and the River Ribble in the north, and Southport in the south. The land is flat and low-lying, and much of it has undergone rapid residential development in recent years. Since the 17th century, hundreds of hectares of land in the Banks and Hesketh bank area have been reclaimed from the Ribble estuary. In addition, an inland mere, which stretched from the village of Rufford to the coast, has been drained. All in all, some of the best arable land in the country is in my constituency, but its future productivity relies on a good, well-managed drainage system.
	Over the past 10 years, there has been a steady increase in the frequency of flooding and drainage problems. Since the summer, I have held two public meetings: one in New Longton, attended at a few days' notice by about 60 people, and one in the village of Banks, attended by over 100 residents. Although my constituency is coastal—some people might say that it is estuarial, as it lies on the Ribble estuary—the main problem is not tidal flooding but the inadequacy of various water courses, drains and sewers in coping with periods of heavy rain. Responsibility lies with four public bodies in addition to local landowners. The Environment Agency has responsibility for the main river water courses, and there is concern that the switch of emphasis in funding has led to cuts in the maintenance of water courses. Local district councils—in my case, South Ribble borough council and West Lancashire district council—have powers to ensure that local landowners maintain ditches and water courses on their land. The use of that power is critical, as it is not uncommon for a landowner to face flooding as a result of a blockage in adjacent land, even though that land is not affected.
	Lancashire county council, as the highways authority, is responsible for highways drainage, and United Utilities is responsible for the sewerage system. At both public meetings, issues were raised that illustrate the way in which the responsibilities of the various public bodies are interlinked. Without a close working relationship, tackling any of those issues becomes even more difficult. Following the highest recorded rainfall for 60 years, there was extensive flooding to properties in Chapel lane and the surrounding area in New Longton on 21 January 2008. Lancashire county council has explained that the drainage system in Chapel lane is relatively complex, relying on a combination of private ditches and culverts, highways drains and public sewers. A short-term remedial action programme was put in place, and plans were drawn up to replace a number of drains and culverts, including private ones. Unfortunately, on 26 October 2008, floods occurred once again. In a few weeks' time—and I am grateful to Lancashire county council—a major scheme costing more than £100,000 will begin, including private drains as well as the replacement of the highways drains. However, drains from the Chapel lane area eventually flow into private drains further down the channel, and South Ribble borough council has played a key role in ensuring that the private drains downstream are unblocked and adequate when the work is completed in the Chapel lane area.
	In Banks, residents raised a series of problems in various parts of the village. Much of the village is below sea level, and many of the incidents have arisen because sewers and drains had become blocked. I received a letter from United Utilities last week that gave detailed information about the numerous blockages in the sewerage system and the inadequacies of the system as a whole in many areas. United Utilities pointed out that tackling the problem of inadequate sewers would require additional investment and that properties that suffered internal flooding were its highest priority. United Utilities works on a five-year investment programme, and the limit for its expenditure is set by the regulator. The next programme is due to start in 2010, but Ministers must bear in mind the fact that if we limit that investment programme we will reduce the opportunity to tackle the problem.

Nigel Evans: I intend to make only a short contribution to a very useful debate.
	As the hon. Member for South Ribble (Mr. Borrow) said, several of us have in our constituencies villages and areas that are affected by flooding for one reason or another. I agree that the number of agencies involved sometimes leads to confusion. It would be useful if the Environment Agency acted as an arbiter when United Utilities or the county council says, "It's not our responsibility—it's somebody else's", and we cannot determine whose responsibility it really is. There should be far more transparency and clarity so that those under the threat of flooding are able to get it sorted out whenever that is possible.
	A number of villages in my area have been affected by flooding in the 16 years that I have been the Member of Parliament there. My own village has not been affected by flooding, but there is a brook that runs through it and we have had to try to get it cleared because it is amazing how quickly the foliage grows. When I wrote to the county council on behalf of local residents, I was told, "It would be a cosmetic exercise and we haven't got money for those." Fortunately, it eventually got sorted out with the assistance of County Councillor Albert Atkinson. The maintenance of these water courses is vital. The Government say that they want to do a lot of public spending to help the economy, so this would be exactly the right time to prioritise that. Once a brook or a water course has been cleared, it is far easier to maintain it than to try to get it sorted out when it has been let go for a few years. The operation is far more expensive when it is completely overgrown or there has been a blockage.
	As the Minister will know, flooding is awful for residents. It is a constant worry when they are not flooded and a complete nightmare when the rains come suddenly and their homes are damaged. I could name a number of villages in my area that have been affected during my 16 years as Member of Parliament. I once went to Bolton-by-Bowland post-flooding and spoke to several villagers there. One's heart sinks and one's eyes fill with tears when one sees the anguish on their faces, with their homes completely destroyed and the clean-up that has to take place. If a village is hit by flooding time and again, residents often have an insurance problem—companies do not want to insure them or the premiums go right through the roof.
	This is a vital issue that needs to be properly addressed. I agree with the hon. Member for South Ribble that we must look again at the planning system. In some cases, planning permission seems to be given in areas where the locals know that land is affected by flooding. Locals ask, "Why has planning permission been given for that?", but in some cases there is apparently no choice. Unless there is going to be proper drainage that can be proven to be effective, homes should not be built.
	I hope that the Minister is able to give some assurances not only to South Ribble but to the wider area of Lancashire constituencies. It is a fantastic county, but we get more than our fair share of rain, and therefore the problems that are associated with it.

Lindsay Hoyle: I totally agree, and that is the point. We have to ensure that we reflect the right image and have the best practice. Authorities have to share best practice to ensure that the people of South Ribble do not suffer because of neglect taking place in Chorley or in other districts. I take that point on board; it is part of the key issue.
	My hon. Friend rightly referred to who is responsible. Is it a question of private ownership? The Government have to look at that. Historically, private clearance of ditches does not take place and the Environment Agency ought to have new powers so that in cases where private owners of a ditch or sewer are not dealing with a problem, the agency has the power to clear the blockage and charge for it. It is a matter of ensuring that we all benefit, and the Minister may want to take that point on board.
	My hon. Friend rightly touched on another key point about United Utilities and other water companies, and when I consider it, it worries more than anything. They are caning the churches, sporting organisations and charities alike. We are talking about surface water, which God provides for nothing, but United Utilities and other water companies want to charge the Church for what runs off the roof. The churches already, quite rightly, pay for sewerage and for the water that they use. But water companies such as United Utilities have arbitrarily told churches that they owe a certain amount of money. There is no proof that the water is not soaking away, or that it is going into the sewer. The obligation should be on the water company to prove whether that is the case, but it has made the churches liable. That has got to be stopped, and the situation needs to be rethought.
	United Utilities has not done any impact study. It has introduced huge charges that will close churches throughout the north-west, and other water companies will close churches throughout the country—my hon. Friend referred to the churches in South Ribble. I say to the Minister that the effect of the charges will be wholesale closures, despite the fact that there has been no impact study. No thought has been given to the consequence of these thousands of pounds of charges. On average, each church will have to pay an extra £3,000. Where will they find that money? They will find it from the congregations. Why have we allowed the water companies to do that?
	The previous Secretary of State said that the water companies should not impose charges on churches, so we must remove them. They are totally unacceptable, and I have not heard any customers say that it is right to charge the churches. Nobody agrees with it, and the time has come for the Government to stand up, put the water companies in line and not allow them to make the charges. Otherwise, there will be wholesale decimation of churches throughout the country, which is not what we want. We want the Government to support the churches, sporting organisations and charities that have suddenly had charges imposed on them. It is a big issue, and it will not go away. On the Downing street website, I think that it has the fastest growing number of objectors. We need to consider it quickly.
	I thank the Minister for his time, I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Ribble for allowing us to join in the debate.